Amplify Your Voice: Organizations & Advocacy with Dr Gina Hounam and Dr Maggie Kettler

Joining a professional organization is more than paying dues—it’s a powerful step toward building connections, influencing change, and amplifying your voice.

In this episode, host Dr. Carrie Spangler sits down with Dr. Gina Hounam (Audiology Program Manager at Nationwide Children's in Ohio) and Dr. Maggie Kettler (Senior Clinical Director at Cincinnati Children's)  to explore the role professional organizations play in shaping the future of audiology and hearing healthcare. They share their personal journeys, the impact of getting involved, and practical ways you can start advocating—whether you’re a student, new professional, or seasoned expert.

For more information about today's guests, please reach out via email

Gina.Hounam@nationwidechildrens.org

Margaret.Kettler@cchmc.org

For more information about Dr. Carrie Spangler- check out her Linktree at https://linktr.ee/carrie.spangler.

For transcripts of this episode- visit the podcast website at: https://empowearaudiology.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

Carrie Spangler: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to Episode 76 of the Empower Ear Audiology Podcast with Dr. Carrie Spangler. Welcome to the Empower Ear Audiology Podcast. I'm Dr. Carrie Spangler, your host, an educational audiologist, a certified professional coach, and someone who brings both personal and professional experience to the conversation. This podcast is a space to explore meaningful stories, innovative ideas, and inclusive practices that support individuals on their hearing journey. I am thrilled today to have two incredible colleagues and friends joining me, Dr. Maggie Kettler and Dr. Gina Hounam. We each belong to different audiology organizations here in Ohio, and together we bridge these organizational lines to work as one unified voice on key priorities, and we're going to talk about that today. But before I bring them onto the podcast, I just wanted to read a bio about each of them so you as listeners know who we are talking to today. So Dr. Maggie Kettler is an audiologist and senior clinical director at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center in Cincinnati, Ohio. She specializes in diagnostics and treatment of children with hearing loss from ages birth through 21 years of age. She works with patients of varying ages and developmental needs. Dr. Kettler is currently a member of the interdisciplinary cochlear implant team at Cincinnati Children's. Dr. Kettler is the former president of the Ohio Speech, Language, and Hearing Association and is currently a member of the Ohio Speech and Hearing Governmental Affairs Coalition. She is an active member of the American Academy of Audiology. Maggie is leading the statewide effort of targeted CMV screening in Ohio, and she is passionate about serving not only our patients, but also the audiology community. I also have Dr. Gina Hounam, who is the audiology program manager at Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus and Ohio, and she has practiced audiology in a variety of settings for over 20 years. Her area of interest focuses on relationship-centered care, eddy programs, and leadership development. She has years of experience in grant writing and believes in supporting community education and awareness. Her goal, both as a clinician and manager, has always been to help patients and families overcome obstacles associated with hearing loss and supporting young audiology professionals achieve their maximum potential. In her current professional role, she serves as the governmental affairs representative for the Ohio Academy of Audiology. OAA has provided Gina with amazing opportunities for professional growth and networking since 2016. In her life outside of audiology, she enjoys time with her husband of 21 years, two soccer-obsessed teenage boys, and their dogs. And for today's podcast, her views will be representative of her role with the Ohio Academy of Audiology. So Gina and Maggie, thank you for joining me today on the Empower Your Audiology podcast. Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited to be here.

Gina Hounam: 3:37

Thanks, Carrie. Thanks for those long bios you read for

Carrie Spangler: 3:41

us too. Well, both of you are stellar, amazing professionals. And I'm so excited to have this conversation because over the last seven years, we've gotten to know each other pretty well. And over many years, but especially the last seven years. For my podcast, when I have audiologists on my podcast, I always like to find out if there's any I guess, story that you want to share about how you got into the field of audiology? Because I think it's very interesting sometimes. Do either of you have a good story of how you got into the field?

Maggie Kettler: 4:16

f Sure, I can start. So I am a rare audiologist, I think. I wanted to be an audiologist always. So even when I was little, I would have said, My goal in life was to be an audiologist at Children's Hospital, so my life really did turn out exactly how I would have hoped, even at a very young age. I was a babysitter for a family that had deaf children here in Cincinnati, and at that time really was drawn to their communication, their education. hearing aid devices, and just really that view into how hearing loss impacts kids. So went to college for audiology and never really changed paths.

Carrie Spangler: 4:54

Wow, that is amazing. Not many people say that they found audiology at that young of an age. I

Gina Hounam: 5:01

I think I represent the other 98% of audiologists who Thought they were going to be speech pathologists for a hot second and then realized that maybe we were a better fit for a very exact science that wonderful, clear answers, less shades of gray of audiology. So which also isn't true, but at least that's how I got there. So I love your story, Maggie. I love that.

Carrie Spangler: 5:25

Yeah, thanks for sharing. I think a lot of people say that they go into speech pathology and then they take a course on intro to audiology and they're like, oh, maybe this is a better fit for me.

Gina Hounam: 5:35

I just didn't know what it was until I did. But then there was no turning back. Had I known at age five, maybe the stories would have been the same.

Carrie Spangler: 5:44

Well, I know that all three of us have a lot of clinical experience with audiology. And I think probably we would all agree in graduate school that we know that maybe advocacy was another piece of audiology. But In addition to your clinical work, how do you feel like advocacy has changed you as a professional too?

Gina Hounam: 6:08

Carrie, I think there was a time even as an audiologist where I just didn't think that if I could change something, it wasn't me. I wasn't the person that was going to change it. I needed, you know, those more famous or well-known audiologists to do it. And I would just see my patients and continue on that path and then there was just this moment. It was actually, I was accepted into the Jerger Future Leaders of Audiology Conference through AAA. And my eyes were just opened to how much we can be part of that change. And then I was just challenged to come back home and meet with my own representation. And they listen to you and they care about what you have to say. And they ask questions, you ask questions. And then slowly over time, I started to realize I am somebody that people will listen to, not because I'm special or did anything in school, but because I'm willing to meet with people and talk about a profession that I care about. And that's really all that you need to get that work done. I

Carrie Spangler: 7:13

love how- I'll

Maggie Kettler: 7:14

answer that too. Yeah,

Carrie Spangler: 7:16

I was just going to say real quick though, but I love how that the Jerger Leadership Scholarship really helped you find that voice. So just kind of a testament to our organization for having programs like that to grow the future of leaders. So Maggie, go ahead.

Maggie Kettler: 7:35

Actually, I was in JFLAG as well. And it is an amazing program. So I can echo that that is absolutely a great opportunity for audiologists who are interested in developing their career. But I would add to it, I know when I started in audiology, it takes a few years to just get comfortable in clinical practice. So I think at that time, It was hard to even conceptualize all of these things that are happening in the background and that are so important to your job. But once you hit the point where you feel pretty comfortable in what you're doing day to day and you realize that you're touching these flowers, I always use this analogy, like you're touching these flowers that are in your hand and you're doing everything you can do to make them grow. But you look out and there's many more flowers that you're never going to see. So how do you get this, your good work to spread beyond who's in your purview and impact kids who are never going to come to Cincinnati or who are never going to come to Ohio or who are never going to come to the United States? So how can you take your good work and help others and support kids all over the world, not just the ones that are in your backyard? I

Carrie Spangler: 8:44

I love that analogy of the flowers and being able to impact not just your backyard, but like looking beyond that as well. And I shared a little bit in your bios that we're kind of all members of different state organizations who all have a common thread, too, of audiology. And I think we belong to those organizations as they kind of speak to maybe your specific role as a clinical audiologist or pediatric audiologist. What have you seen, or I guess, Why has being part of those organizations mattered so much for you? Maggie, do you want to start with that one?

Carrie Spangler: 9:27

Maggie: Sure. So I can say that joining my state and national organizations are a pivotal part of my career and gave me leadership opportunities and gave me the knowledge and training on how to lead at a different level. It gave me opportunities to learn about how the finances need to work in an organization and in a division. And again, how to really understand best practices, how they are developed. I think that being a part of those, no matter which one it is, can become such a catalyst to somebody's career that it's something that I encourage all of our students and all of our new employees to To look at different organizations and find the one that feels right to you and join it and get involved. See where that path can take you, but it can really be a really great opportunity personally and professionally. Gina, do you have anything to add? o

Gina Hounam: 10:27

I of course, agree with everything Maggie said. And we've talked about this a few times. Just join an organization, like she said. there's not a right or wrong one out there in your state, probably, at least definitely not in Ohio. I think they're all phenomenal. I think another benefit to joining for me has also been just that it fills my cup in ways that my job maybe doesn't. So I know most of the people I work with who give of their time, I think they're all volunteer-based organizations. We have a lot to do at our jobs that we're getting paid for, which can maybe not be fluid or there's not as much excitement or change day to day. And I think having this other outlet to be with other people and talk about a profession that we've dedicated a lot of time and energy to is just a way to keep it fresh for me and to keep myself really motivated and engaged and excited about the profession, you know, in the long game. And so it's really done a lot for me just personally in terms of filling my cup and keeping me passionate about audiology.

Carrie Spangler: 11:37

Yeah. And I know both of you have been leaders within your organization and that level too. What about those individuals who are out there, who are listening, who may say, I don't have time for this, or why should I give my money to this organization in order to join?

Gina Hounam: 12:00

I think that's a really good question. And it's a really, I think it's also very hard for people to see why they should give their money. I think being involved specifically at an advocacy level and being involved in Ohio and watching these organizations pull their money together to be able to afford the amount of lobbying support that we have is the best way to see why that money is so critical. And I think we'll probably dive into some of those examples later, Carrie, so I won't steal your thunder with that. But I think when you're truly involved in sitting at the table, you will see firsthand why the membership dues are important and what it's supporting. And I do think it's hard to see that if you're not fully immersed in it. So I give credit to anyone who has that question because things are expensive and we all don't have a money tree in the backyard. But I think to speak to somebody who serves on one of those boards, talk to them directly, they will probably be able to convince you how important that membership is and just join and try to pay attention to the emails, try to pay attention to the social media pages and see that there's work being done.

Maggie Kettler: 13:14

Yeah, I'll add to that. You paid a lot of money to get a license, to get the education, to become an audiologist was not inexpensive. And your license is what protects you from, keeps you employed. It keeps you having the opportunity to make money. If you look at it, the cost of a state membership is really not very expensive. It's less than a hundred dollars a year for our organizations. And really it's the best way to protect your license. We don't want decisions to be made about what audiologists can do or what audiologists can bill for if we are not at that table. Having a membership to the state organization ensures that you have somebody there who's representing you. If our state organizations disappear, that voice disappears. Those conversations don't disappear. They will continue to happen. There will continue to be discussions about what people need, what licensure cuts can be made. And if we don't have a voice at that table, then we really have a lot to lose. So I think it's just so important that people understand we're at a critical point, right? We're at a critical point in our profession where we want to protect our scope. We want to expand our scope. And the only way to do that is through a really strong association and advocacy.

Carrie Spangler: 14:43

Yeah, you both make great points with this. I think you highlighted the importance of being part of a state organization, not just for the pay your dues, but really to advance who you are and what your scope of practice is, then to be connected to others and stay up to date. But also the other piece, like we all live in Ohio, but we're not able to be down in Columbus at the state house every day listening to what our representatives and senators and people who are voting on making laws and how that can impact us. And I think you both made the point of that lobbying piece is really a critical piece of those membership dues. And the three of us were really personally and I think professionally involved in a effort to pass legislation in Ohio called Madeline's Law, which really allows for children to obtain hearing aids if they have a private insurance in Ohio or insurance plan for ages 0 to up to age 21. And I would love to dive a little bit deeper into how all of this started and some of those behind the scenes legwork. Because if you saw pictures of us, you would think it, you know, in a day it happened. But really? Did it happen in a day?

Maggie Kettler: 16:14

No, that was definitely not a day. I think we all look very different than we did the first day of that initiative. I mean, this was the coolest project ever because It linked all of us as professionals who are dedicated to kids with hearing loss with families and with the kids, right? So we were able to go like shoulder to shoulder and talk to our legislators and talk to everybody about why this wasn't so important. We were able to storm the phones and call over and over and send emails and making sure everybody stayed front of mind, but started with the families. And that's what I think really made this an amazing project to be a part of because while it's important to us, it was really important to them.

Gina Hounam: 16:59

Yeah, I don't have much to add to that. I think Maggie used the words, you know, the day that that was passed, that this was the pinnacle of her career. And I think that was the perfect way to say it because it is all the things we've said. You know that it's the right thing to do. You know that this is something you care a lot about. But when you see it happen and you know that you got to be a part of that, That's pretty huge because that's not something you get to do just at work every day, which is why I think it can really fill people's cups to get involved in that way and really back up the passion that we have. But those kids, man, I mean, I never wanted to be the person that spoke after one of those kids. When we were doing all of that testimony, I always wanted to go before them. They were incredible.

Carrie Spangler: 17:44

They were. They had the most powerful voice, but the lived experience, so... to have them be a part of that. And that doesn't always happen in that as well.

Maggie Kettler: 17:56

w I mean, I would never want to minimize the role that you had because there were days that it was not front of mind and you made sure that it's remained front of mind for everybody in Ohio who was at all associated. So there was a lot of pushing in the right direction for everybody and that you created. So you have a big part in that as well and really respect what you did.

Carrie Spangler: 18:21

Thank you. I think Senator Weinstein said that I was a very persistent communicator. And I said, is that a really nice word for nag? Because I felt like I was constantly reaching out to him to say, where are we with Madeline's Law? Don't forget about Madeline's Law. And I think that's the power of having a voice and being an advocate. Like, you really develop a lot of grit and perseverance in the process. And you have to have it because it took three general assemblies to get this passed. And if we would have given up after the first general assembly, we wouldn't have been at a signing in this bill into law.

Gina Hounam: 19:12

I think Senator Weinstein also said on that day that if there's anything any of us want done, to make sure Carrie also wants it done, it'll get done. Because when we would get a text from you, Carrie, we knew it was time to go to work. Yep, t

Maggie Kettler: 19:29

That be great advice from our friend Senator Weinstein.

Carrie Spangler: 19:33

Be a persistent communicator.

Gina Hounam: 19:36

Persistent Communicator

Carrie Spangler: 19:36

c yes. But I feel like all of our work really behind the scenes and that legwork that made everything happen really was why we got to celebrate. And we talked about joining professional organization. And the three of us were really involved with our families and a core group of people with a lot of the behind the scenes and time and energy in all of that. However, can we talk about what other individuals did along the way that were small steps that really were important in all of the moving parts of getting legislation passed? t

Maggie Kettler: 20:25

I think our organization did a call for... statewide communication on social media. I mean, obviously families were a huge part of this with the website or the Facebook group that they had formed and the constant communication out. And just those little pieces, those little nuggets really do make a big difference because, you know, we learned in doing that, one of the people we contacted was like, oh, I have a state senator who's my next door neighbor. Oh, I know somebody here or there. And when you're talking about like state legislation, that happens a lot, right? So by forming these little small networks, you really are able to find some people who can help move your message along and help you get further connected to the right people. So I know those little asks and little communications, little Facebook posts made a big difference for us.

Gina Hounam: 21:16

I think something else we did in the time building up to getting that law passed, just in that intense work together, is we were able to put together a slide deck of information about advocacy and the work that we're doing amongst all of our organizations. And then we all presented that same message at all of our state conferences. And I think that was a really cool moment to be able to say, like I knew any audiologist or speech pathologist at any of those membership conferences was getting the same information, the same message. We did a little bit of like Advocacy 101. So everybody was getting a little bit inspired to like, what is my next step? What can I do to be a part of this bigger movement that I'm learning about? And that was a really cool moment, I think, for our state. Because I mean, when you put all of those organizations together, OSSPEAC , OAA, OSHLA, when you put all four of those organizations together, that's a lot of people in our state. That's a lot of professionals that it represents. And so- it just makes that community so much more tangible for all of us who might feel kind of like, I'm the only audiologist that works in the setting that I'm in or something like that. So that was a really cool moment too, for advocacy in particular.

Carrie Spangler: 22:27

Yeah, I feel like that unified voice, where you don't need to be working in silos, we all have these overlapping points that we really feel passionate about. So when we're able to join our voices together, There's a lot that can be done, such as passing Madeline's law, which was a huge impact for the state of Ohio. Just kind of moving from that, how do you feel like this Madeline's law and the work that we are able to do with that, how does that kind of influence you with future advocacy efforts? What have you learned? What do you see next?

Maggie Kettler: 23:08

Let's me know we can do it. We can make it work. Right. And there's something to be said just for that. So you find the right team. If you have a good message and it's comes from a good place, you just go for it. Whatever barriers in your way, you jump over it and get ready for the next one.

Gina Hounam: 23:27

We also learned that it takes time. So it's a long game. It's not like we want hearing aids for kids. Let's go get hearing aids for kids. You know, And you have to build these relationships over time for people to listen to you. So I do think there are a lot of strong professionals in audiology who we all have strong voices. So we think if I just say this is what we should have, then the lawmakers should make it happen. I think really seeing firsthand that isn't how it works, but it does work if you play the long game and you don't give up. You have a persistent communicator. And you have also the power of a lobbying firm, which was only possible because of the joint efforts of four organizations that came together with their membership dues to pay for that. So I think that's a really important thing for professionals to take away from the success of that is that their dollars actually really helped make that happen too. Absolutely.

Carrie Spangler: 24:31

Yeah. And I know, Maggie, you have been really instrumental in another advocacy effort in the state of Ohio. Do you want to share a little bit about this effort that you're working on?

Maggie Kettler: 24:47

So we've been working for about two and a half years now on getting congenital cytomegalovirus screening into our birth hospitals. And ultimately our goal is going to be for all kids in Ohio to get a congenital CMV screening prior to discharge. But that's a big ask and there's a lot of hurdles to that. So right now our focus has been for the first leg of the race for kids who fail their newborn hearing screening. We've made really great progress with that for all the same reasons, right? This is an important thing that can really impact the future of kids. So this one we've actually done in a different way, not with a legislative push, but really with partnering with infectious disease doctor and neonatologist at Nationwide Children's Hospital, Pablo Sanchez, and communicating and educating and informing clinicians around the state on why this is important. Just by providing that education and awareness, we've really been able to make some great strides, but we still have a long way to go to make sure all the kids get what they need.

Carrie Spangler: 25:57

Yeah, and your point of Before, when we talked about advocacy with more of the legislative process, this is another way that our voices can be heard. It's just advocating by building those relationships and communication and awareness and education. You can still advocate for what individuals need on many different levels.

Maggie Kettler: 26:20

Absolutely. And with this project as well, the state organizations were also a critical component. So they were barriers that we were able to accomplish of talking to Ohio Department of Health and then getting connected and providing education with Ohio Hospital Association that I wouldn't have been even informed about what to do without these associations banding together and providing that support. So there's a lot of these kinds of initiatives that we're looking at now and that are going to be coming down the pike. And this partnership just makes it possible and makes us so much further ahead than other states where they don't have this kind of a collaboration or joint effort for advocacy.

Carrie Spangler: 27:07

And along with that, I know there's some trends federally too. Does that help you with your advocacy efforts?

Maggie Kettler: 27:16

It does. So we're seeing more and more states pass legislation for hearing targeted and a couple have gotten it for universal. There's now some federal legislation that is being introduced. All of those things bring awareness and really can help our cause. And our cause is always just to help the kids. So we're excited to see where this goes next or where this takes us, but are excited to see this federal push as well as at these different state levels. I think it's really going to be impactful for our kids here in Ohio.

Carrie Spangler: 27:50

Yeah. So kind of moving a little bit forward too, I think we've really shined through that we both, all three of us feel like being a part of your state organization or your national organization is really important in order to just grow as a professional, but also as an advocate too. And we may have some listeners out there that is maybe intrigued by the conversation and thinking to themselves like, well, I'm not really a natural advocate or I can't be an advocate. What would you say to them that they might be able to kind of change their mind about their mindset?

Gina Hounam: 28:34

I think, and this was recommended to me when I was first thinking about walking down this path, was one of my colleagues actually at the hospital recommended just schedule a meeting with the people who represent you. take your resume or your CV and say, here are the things I'm an expert on. Because every person is an expert on whatever they're an expert on. And the people representing us are not experts on all of those things. And so just introducing yourself and saying, I'm one of the people you represent. I'm really good at ears and hearing. So whenever things come up about healthcare or pediatrics or things, I might want to sit down and talk to you about them and give you some perspective. I did that. It was terrifying for me personally, but it was not hard. It is their job to listen to their constituents. They will take that meeting. They will listen to you. And then you just do it again and then another time. And at some point, you're saying hi to these people at church because you're just sitting in their office so much, you know. But if that seems too much, you can also send an email. They will respond to your emails. And you can introduce yourself that way. But I think just taking that step into like dip your toe into that world. It's a very accessible world for all of us. We can all reach them by phone, email or an in-person meeting and just do it.

Maggie Kettler: 30:02

Yeah. And I would add, if you can't, if this just is very outside of your wheelhouse and you can't get over that, know that you're being represented by us, right? Us as people in the profession. So reach out to me and say, hey, this is something that's really, really challenging. That's really bothering me at my workplace. Reach out to Carrie, reach out to Gina. We will help move the path forward if we can. We are really here to represent the audiologists in Ohio. So if there is a need of something and you don't have the time or you don't have the energy or you just don't want to. Know that you're being represented and reach out and we will happily work with you and be a partner. That's a great point,

Carrie Spangler: 30:47

That's a great point, Maggie Yeah, both of the answers are great. And I think, again, it goes back to getting involved in whatever organization you feel is your best fit for your profession and passion and then taking it from there. Getting involved a little bit and then over time, you'll feel more comfortable to get involved with more and more things that you feel passionate about. As we kind of close up today, I thought I would ask both of you, is there anyone that really inspired you to kind of take that step to leadership

Maggie Kettler: 31:26

l When I was thinking of this question, you know, I could say that the true pediatric audiology answer would be Marion Downs. And absolutely, you can't hear her story and not feel moved and think, I want to be more like you every day. But honestly, Carrie, you have a huge role in this too. I mean, I think of you, you think all the way back to newborn hearing screening in Ohio, there really isn't a initiative for kids with hearing loss that you didn't touch it some way. So I'm going to say that you inspire me to do better and to do more and to never give up.

Carrie Spangler: 32:03

Oh, well, thank you. That means a lot to me. I

Gina Hounam: 32:07

I have like chill bumps. I don't even want to add to that.

Carrie Spangler: 32:12

Yeah, I would say this is just from personal. I remember when I got my first job as an educational audiologist a long time ago, and I was a member of, it was called Quota Club, and it was basically like a women's service organization. And one of their kind of missions was speech and hearing. And there was a parent involved in this organization who had three kids and two of her kids had cochlear implants. And they were not diagnosed with newborn hearing screening and all of that. And these group of small, dedicated women were determined to get newborn hearing screening passed. And they literally said, you're coming with us to Columbus. They didn't really give me a choice. And so they really inspired me. And I learned quickly that having this personal journey along with a professional journey gives you a strong voice when you're talking to people. And I realized at that point in time that this was something I knew I would be passionate about advocating for families and kids throughout my career. But it really took someone really just kind of telling me to get in the car and they're going to drive. And that was kind of how I got involved in the advocacy effort. Maybe I was naive and I didn't know what I was getting myself into, so I didn't have time to get scared with it. But that's kind of my story.

Maggie Kettler: 33:51

This collaboration with this group here has just been such a wonderful one for my career. And I hope everybody in their career finds people who they can join arms with and make a change.

Gina Hounam: 34:04

I think that's a huge plug, again, for joining an organization. I wouldn't know either of you, most likely. If I had not become a member of OAA, if I had not become the governmental affairs rep who was, you know, sort of sent to all of these testimony things where I met you guys and decided, you know, if you jump, I jump or whatever for all of those years. So that's a huge plug just for getting involved because you will have people you can count on who do the same job you do in totally different settings all across the state, which is a cool thing to have. And all of those people will inspire you.

Carrie Spangler: 34:42

They will. Well, I want to say thank you to both of you for joining me today on the EmpowEAR Audiology podcast. Before we close out, do you have any last words or anything you want to add?

Maggie Kettler: 34:57

You know, join your association, get involved, stay involved. We've done some great work, but we have so much more work to do and it's never going to end. So join us in the good fight. Yeah. And

Gina Hounam: 35:09

listen to your professors because they're telling you this and you're overwhelmed with school, but they're right. They are right. When they're saying get involved and they're saying pay attention and they're saying you have a voice, they're right. All of them.

Carrie Spangler: 35:22

It's like you don't realize your parents are right until like later on in life. It's the same thing,

Gina Hounam: 35:29

right? Yes. When they tell you to join, when they tell you to get involved, just listen to them. Just

Carrie Spangler: 35:35

Just do it.

Maggie Kettler: 35:36

Thank you, Carrie. This was so fun. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having us.

Carrie Spangler: 35:42

Yes. Thank you both for sharing your time and your insights. And I just want to echo like joining arms with both of you has been just a great part of my career and you both inspire me as well. And for listeners out there, I hope today's conversation left you feeling inspired and informed and ready to be an advocate. on your own journey. And if you've enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the show, leave a quick review and share it with someone who might benefit. And the Empow EAR Audiology podcast is a production of the Empo wEAR Audiology and Coaching Company. Thank you.