A Conversation with Dr. Carol Flexer about Lifelong Learning

This week I am honored to sit down with the Dr. Carol Flexer, a Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Audiology, international lecturer in pediatric and educational audiology and author of more than 155 publications including 17 books.  In this episode, Dr. Flexer also shares how her audiology motto “It’s all about the Brain” evolved and has become a motto for audiologists when we talk about hearing. Join Carrie and Carol take a walk down memory lane and reflect on how professional mentors can shape our professional trajectory as well as our willingness to be open to new research and information.  

You can learn more about Carol Flexer by visiting her webpage at: http://www.carolflexer.com/

For more information about Dr. Carrie Spangler- check out her LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-spangler/

For transcripts of this episode- visit the podcast website at: https://empowearaudiology.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

00:00:00] Welcome to episode five of empowEAR Audiology with Dr. Carrie Spangler.
[00:00:15] Welcome to the empowEAR Audiology Podcast. My name is dr. Carrie Spangler, and I am your host for this podcast. I'm a passionate audiologist with a lifelong journey of living with hearing challenges in this vibrant hearing world. Thank you for listening, and I hope you will subscribe, invite others to listen, and leave me a positive review.
[00:00:40] I also wanted to invite all of you to visit and engage on the empowEAR Audiology Facebook page. So let's get started with today's episode of empowEAR Audiology . This episode has an important theme for all of us, and it is about lifelong learning. So when we allow new information, people and experiences to change who we are, we are open to the concept that lifelong learning is critical to who we are
Today I have the great honor to interview someone who has made a lifelong impact on my own life. She's been my audiologist, my professor, my mentor, and my friend. And so this interview will highlight the importance of fostering these relationships and how each encounter with people and information can be powerful.
 So before we get started, I would like to tell you just a little bit about Dr. Carol Flexer. So Dr. Flexer is an audiologist. She's a listening and spoken language specialist and a certified auditory verbal therapist. And she received her doctorate in audiology from Kent State University in 1982.
She's a distinguished professor of audiology at the University of Akron. And she's an international lecturer and pediatric and educational audiologist. She's the author of more than 155 publications, including 17 books. She's also the past president of the Educational Audiology Association, the American Academy of Audiology, and the AG Bell Academy for Listening and Spoken Language.
So, Carol, I am so excited to have you on this podcast today and, um, it is just, you know, thank you for coming and being part of this today. Oh, well, thank you so much for inviting me. You know, what? We have traveled such a long path together, and it's just my honor to be here with you. Thank you for the invitation.
Well, good. I am really excited to have you today. So I thought we would kind of start out with, how did you get started in the field of audiology? Well, going way back, as I was growing up, I always wanted to be a nurse. In fact, I was sure I would be a nurse. And so when, after I graduated high school, I went to the University of Colorado in Boulder, Colorado.
They had a five year nursing program that you would end up with a bachelor's degree. So I went through about two and a half years of that program. And then I decided no, nursing isn't what I thought it was. I think I want to be a doctor. So then I started looking at premed. And this was 1964.
And that also didn't seem to suit me. Then I looked at dentistry and, and I was just really looking all over for different sorts of hoops. Who was I going to be now that I wasn't going to be a nurse? Well, I stopped and then stumbled on broadcast journalism, which is just like nursing, right? How different could it be?
So broadcast journalism. And I loved it. So it's there that I really learned a lot about lecturing, about vocal control, about being able to use your voice and manage an audience. I mean, I had multiple courses and I loved it, but there wasn't an undergraduate degree labeled broadcast journalism.
It was a speech degree. And as part of that undergraduate speech degree, I had to take a course in speech-language pathology. Now they had heard of speech, language pathology. And, um, I actually really loved the course. And as part of this intro course, there was a two week lecture series on audiology. I had never, ever heard of audiology.
You know, many people and as a field know about it, or they know. I'm one with a hearing loss. I never knew anyone with a hearing loss. I mean, maybe older people, but even in my family, older people didn't wear hearing aids because. In 1964, 65, you just didn't. If you live long enough to need a hearing aid, you simply didn't wear them.
At least no one in our family. And believe me, they didn't need something. So I never, ever heard of audiology, but I fell in love with it. I mean, I just fell totally in love. It had everything, it had medicine, it had science, it had talking, it was all about talking and listening and communication. It was everything I just fell in love with. I had gotten married and I had some kids.
In the seventies, everyone got divorced. I mean, I don't know how anyone stayed married in the seventies. Truly everyone. I know I got divorced. It was just what you did. It was a little more than that, but not a whole lot more. Cause we were, we were in a whole different journey. It was a brave new world for women.
You know, we had so many more options. We can just have it all. We thought it's about time, but you know it's hard to have it all at the same time. Anyway. So, um, I then applied for graduate school. I had just gotten divorced and, uh, the University of Denver, cause I was born and raised in Denver. And at the time the University of Denver had an amazing program, master's program in audiology and speech, language pathology, and, uh, Jerry Northern was there, Bob Johnson. You probably don't know, but they were really big in the field at that time. Um, and so I, and I got a full scholarship. Yeah. I mean, a full ride. I got that. That's when there used to be money. Right. I got, it was a called from the rehab. It was a Bureau. Have counseling. And I got a rehab fellowship that paid tuition and I got a stipend.
[00:07:13] So I moved out of my marital home to my two little girls and we moved into married. Also. It was divorced student housing at the University of Denver. And that's where I found myself lot at that time at the university of Denver. I was lucky enough to work with absolutely amazing people. You know, I, I knew they were amazing, but I didn't know how amazing until some time had passed.
[00:07:44] For example, I did an externship with Marion Downs and with Jerry Northern Doreen Pollock, she was at Porter Memorial hospital and it was through Doreen Pollack that I learned about auditory, verbal therapy, listening and spoken language. Um, so I did this a couple of extraships with her. And at the time she was, you know, she had children in her clinic who were just doing, I mean, they were talking, they were, I just had never heard of that of children with severe to profound deafness wearing two big body hearing aids who were talking.
[00:08:25] And I just didn't know how she. Get it. And in fact, I said, you know, Doreen, mrs. Pollock, I can't, um, I just can't believe that this, these children are profoundly deaf. And she said, well, take them into the sound room, test them yourself. So I did. And they were, and so she just opened a home. She provided the vision for me.
[00:08:51] Of what audiology could do in terms of getting information to that child now. And at that time we talked about getting information to the ears. We talked about ear training, life, you all, the little hair cells were doing pushups or something. I mean, That's how we talked about it. And then with Marion Downs, um, I worked with her.
[00:09:13] She had already gone, you know, it was really well on her way to advocating for newborn hearing screening. But what I learned from her was, uh, the, the science, but really the art of behavioral audiometric testing. How do you test a baby Behaviorally? she was a wizard. I mean, she was phenomenal. She could get these babies and parents to respond.
[00:09:40] I just, what I learned from her was absolutely amazing. And guess who else was at the university of Denver teaching? When I was a student Christina Yoshinago-Itano. She had just graduated from Northwestern and she was, um, a brand new professor there when I was a first year master's student.
[00:10:03] So, I mean, you couldn't design a better dream team than I had. Could you, I mean, Christina Yoshinago-Itano, Marion Downs Jerry Northern Doreen Pollack. I, I just, I didn't know how lucky I was to fall in the middle of all of this innovation, all of these dynamic leaders in the field, groundbreaking research.
[00:10:29] Ground breaking ideas, who all, who together really changed audiology. And I was there with them, but I, and as time went on, I just became more and more amazed that I had that. So then fast forward. So I, I was able to, to earn my master's degree, I was then divorced. And so I then needed a job. Well, Bob Johnson had doctoral students all over the country and Jim Yates was the chair of the department at Texas tech.
[00:11:09] University in Lubbock, Texas. And that's another thing I'd hardly ever heard of. I mean, I've heard of Texas, but Lubbock, Texas, I don't think so. So I I'm going on and on. Right. You're good. I went to Lubbock, Texas. I took my two little girls with me. Um, and we went to Lubbock, Texas. Um, Jim Yates said, I told him that, you know, I really, I really would like to do some art.
[00:11:38] Well, we called it Acoupedic Doreen called listening and spoken language therapy. Aren't competing at that point in time. And I said, you know, I I'd like to start that clinic. I wish. Right out of my master's degree to do clinical supervision and get my CFY year. I was literally 30 minutes ahead of the students that I was supervising, right.
[00:12:01] In terms of my experience and knowledge, maybe 15 minutes. And that was it so I was supervising diagnostic testing and was supervising me. And I was just making it up as I went along with my acoupedic clinic. Because all I knew was, Oh, I had, then I did a couple summer courses with Doreen Pollack. Um, so I had some training, but what I did know is that I really wanted to offer that.
[00:12:31] Opportunity to children. Now, this was the day and age. This was way before cochlear implants. This was even just a very beginning of ear level, hearing aids for children with severe to profound hearing loss. We were really still at that time fitting body aids. And most of the time until I learned from Doreen Pollack
[00:12:51] Who were fitting body age with a Y core. That is what one body aid with a split cord going to each year. But Doreen Pollack had taught me that. No, no, no, no. You need to give the ears, talk about brains. You need to give the ears each year as much information as you can. So you fit two Strong body aids.
[00:13:12] And this was the day of analog technology. It was all about power, power, power, power. So you need power those ears. Those little hair cells are really doing situps by now. And, and so we put and so when I went to Texas tech, um, that's what I did now. I think when I first got in, I don't think audiologists were actually fitting hearing aids yet.
[00:13:37] I'm pretty sure we weren't allowed to, um, I, and so I was, they had to, the families, people had to go to a hearing aid dealer to get the hearing aids. Cause it was unethical for audiologists to recommend and then to actually manage the technology piece. So they then went to a hearing aid dealer and I did have a couple of hearing aid dealers who did fit to body aids [00:14:00] on children.
[00:14:00] Although they thought I was crazy, but Hey, also another body aids sure off, but it also two of them. So, um, that's what we did. And then sometime, and I, I really should, I don't remember all the dates it's about when we could start doing technology ourselves, but then I start, I think it was later that then I was able to that we, not just me, but we were able to fit your level, hearing aids on children.
[00:14:25] So, um, and then also at that time, uh, Jim Yates sponsored me and I'm pretty sure it was that time. Plus I. At a later time too, going to work with Dan Ling for a summer at McGill university. So I then learned more information about listening and spoken language and, um, from, from again, a master and Dan Ling, who gets to work with Dan Lang.
[00:14:51] Oh my goodness. And I think I did several other times when I was in my doctoral program as well. So, um, I had the clinic there and then that's where a Texas tech, where I met my current husband, Pete, and we, uh, then I decided that I really wanted a doctorate. I need a PhD in how I decided that is that the new chairman of.
[00:15:15] The Texas tech university speech and hearing department said that he recommended that I get a doctorate because by then I was teaching classes. I was now 45 minutes ahead of the students.
[00:15:30] I was teaching, Texas tech did not have a PhD program. So he said, Oh, he said, I'm happy to keep you at Texas tech as long as you want, but I see that you, you really can do more and you can't do more without a PhD. That's going to be your ticket because I see, I like the way you were running this, this is acoupedic clinic.
[00:15:49] I like what you're doing. And um, I think you need to move on. So by then I was married and. Uh, so I thought, well, where should I go? And I applied to several places and I ended up at Kent state university and my my new husband, Pete Roberts, flexer. I had a PhD in rehab counseling, and he got a faculty position at Kent state.
[00:16:14] Just again, luck, luck, luck. Just as I was applying for a PhD program, there was a faculty position that opened up in this college of education at Kent state. So it was perfect for him. Perfect. It was like, it was written for him. So he got that position and I got another full scholarship for my PhD program.
[00:16:37] And who was at Kent state? Well, it was Ken Berger and Joe Mellon and Don Gans. How, how does one person get so lucky? So now I got to learn from Ken Berger. That was a lot about lip reading, which I was kind of, Hey, I'm doing, I'm not doing lipreading. I'm doing this listening thing, but you still, you know, everyone you're with you learn so much from, and Berger was brilliant about hearing aid and Don Gans neurophysiology.
[00:17:08] Don Gans ended up being my doctoral dissertation advisor, my doctoral advisor. And he was working with gerbils and, and doing different surgery. He's I, I didn't do the animal thing at all, but we did do a pediatric testing and behavioral testing. So I took a lot of information. I learned from Marion downs and work with Don Gans in testing children with severe disabilities.
[00:17:32] And that's what I did my dissertation on. So you see there's there there's we so much to be learned from every single person you come in contact with. And so there I was at this beautiful place at Kent state learning again from amazing teachers, people who were wonderful in the field, who I did presentations with.
[00:17:54] I wrote articles with, they all mentored me. And back at Kent at Texas tech and Texas Tech university in Lubbock. I also get some papers with Jim Yates and presentations, everyone mentored me and my broadcast journalism background had me. I was already, I learned how to do presentations. I learned about that.
[00:18:19] And then I had practice practice with wonderful mentors who included me in amazing opportunities that I was just so lucky to be part of. Then I got hired at the university of Akron, um, for my full time position. And I became very good friends with Denise Wray as a speech pathologist. And she and I started an auditory verbal clinic there and we went and we spent, or I went for sure.
[00:18:51] And Denise, I believe she did too. We spent some time with Helen Beebe and Eastern Pennsylvania. Um, Sure. Um, auditory verbal clinic, um, and learn so much more about how do you do this auditory verbal thing. And guess who was at Helen Beebe, Don Goldberg. Don Goldberg, where it's just, we're just all related.
[00:19:16] Aren't we? Yeah. So we add and guess who was one of my very first babies I worked with Stacy Lim. in fact, we have a whole story about how she had been diagnosed somewhere else, but her parents brought her to Kent state. When I was getting my PhD, this was kind of a little sidebar. And, um, they came to see, not me cause I was a PhD student.
[00:19:46] They came to see one of the real professors, right. And, uh, they, but they got me. So I tested Stacy the way that I learned how to from Marion downs. And I confirmed that yes. [00:20:00] Does have a profound hearing loss. And Betty said, well, we knew she did, but we thought she did, but we needed some more. We needed second and third opinions
[00:20:09] And I said, I don't blame you. I said, you know, but there's so much you can do. And they said, I don't know if there's anything we can do. And I said, well, let me tell you about listening and spoken language. Although we called it acoupedic, you know, we had all these other names for it. But that's what it was.
[00:20:24] And, and I said, you know, I just came out of, I was in Denver just a few years ago with Dorreen Pollack. And, um, I, you're looking around for different possibilities. I suggest you give a call to Doreen Pollack and Charlie Lim. Uh, Stacy's dad said, you're not going to believe this, but I have a business conference scheduled in Denver next week, or the week after he went to visit Doreen Pollack.
[00:20:50] And they made a decision. They were going to do listening and spoken language. They then worked with Helen Bebee and I went with them to the Larry Jared house for [00:21:00] some training with Helen Beebe. And we also are lifelong friends. Right. So now, now I'm at the university of Akron and George Davis. Was the department head then and George Davis supported Denise Wray and I, he gave us time.
[00:21:20] He gave us money to start our auditory verbal clinic. He sent us to, if we wanted to get extra learning, I think he also sent us to, at least for me, again, to do another course with the two or three week course with Dan Ling and George David said, I will send you anywhere. For you to talk about this unique clinic that you have here at the university of Akron, if you and Denise have a paper at any conference, anywhere in the United States, I will send you there.
[00:21:53] And he did. So at these conferences, we met so many people. We networked with people who were big in the field, other pediatric audiologists, other listening and spoken language specialists. So we continue to fine tune our craft to learn more about how do you do pediatric audiology? How do you do listening and spoken language?
[00:22:16] How do we more precisely fit hearing aids? Because this was before, still, before. Real ear measurements. You know, I travel with all these little screwdrivers in my purse because all that, the hearing aids had trimmer pots. And so you like put the hearing aid on your hearing aid stethoscope. I mean, we did have some, we could, of course do some measurements.
[00:22:36] We did that, but you put a lot of listening and, you know, . And I take a little screwdriver and I'm turning the trimmer pots to try and get a more refined signal based on how I was hearing it. And then, but the thing was being a pediatric audiologist. Is it's, it's a science of course. And it's really an art and it's a pediatric audiology, I think, is a calling.
[00:23:05] Right? I mean, that's why Carrie, you and I are still so close it. Isn't like, Oh, nice to see you go have a good life, honey. No, we're like. I'm in it with you, I'm in it with you for the long haul. And I have been since the beginning, and that's how I feel with the children I work with now. Not everyone. I mean, people move away, people move on, people go different, different pathways and that's completely fine.
[00:23:30] But so many we stay in touch with because it means everything. It's a calling. It's not a job. I mean, I would go home at night and ponder, what can I do for this child or this family? There's some missing something, something I'm missing. How can we move forward what's or to go home and just say, I need a glass of wine because this, I got the child into the clinic and they're doing so well.
[00:24:03] It's personal, everything that happens as a pediatric don't you feel that way? Carrie it's like personal. It really is. And I think your point about the, having those important mentors in your life and, and you were definitely one of those mentors in my life, and you talk about the, having those important people and, um, Colorado, like Marion Downs and.
[00:24:26] Christina Yoshinago-Itano and various other people and you were that person for me at the university of Akron when I was there. And I was so fortunate to have you as a professor because your broadcast, journalism really shine through and all that as far as presenting. Um, I think we got excited about learning.
[00:24:53] About pediatric audiology because your passion and your purpose shines through to everybody else that was learning from you. And I think you shine through to every international and national and local presentation that you do, people learn from you, and you're life long learning. And just you talking about different phases of.
[00:25:17] The terminology that you have used and going from a body aid to bilateral body aids to trim pots and ear level two now, cochlear implants level, hearing aids. It all has to do with lifelong learning. And I think, you know, you talk about at the beginning, Um, the little hair cells are doing pushups all the time because of what really?
[00:25:44] Oh, an amplifying, every single little hair cell with a little trimpots that we had to use, because that's all we had at the time, but now you, whatever I think of you and your presentations, I think. Nationally and internationally people think of you as it's all about the brain. So when you're talking about hearing, you've kind of evolved into it's all about the brain.
[00:26:09] So how did you get this idea of talking about the brain and not about the ears? Oh yeah. Well thank you. Cause this is, uh, an interesting backstory that, um, And we, we in audiology have always, we've had key courses in neurology, right. I neuroscience. So we've always known that the brain was the goal. Right.
[00:26:35] And, but we never talked about the brain. We never talked about the brain as, um, as, as the, as the target, the target was always the ear. And in fact, we talked about even we are training the ear, even auditory training was ear training. No, again, like the little eardrums are moving while they are, of course, but not like they, they're not volitionally.
[00:27:05] And we, um, So, so we, I Don Gans, who was my major advisor, because he was all about neurology and he, uh, he was thought at the very beginning of auditory brainstem testing, and he built this whole huge, you know, now you have ABR. It wasn't like a little teeny box on your computer sometimes. Well, it was like a whole room full of technology, um, to, to try and do ABR testing.
[00:27:35] So he did a lot of brain talk, but it was all the scientific data. It wasn't the practice one. And then I started reading more about. Um, uh, auditory perception and, um, auditory, um, you know, feedback and, um, also about, um, so you know what I do. So what am I I'm talking about? We have the brain we have, um, auditory.
[00:28:05] Isn't that funny? I can't find the word that I'm thinking of. It has to do with it's auditory. We're talking about Frank Musiek, auditory, not brain development.
[00:28:20] auditory processing, auditory process. And she has a little bit of downtime, auditory processing. So it was the auditory processing community, like a Gail Chermak, and. Frank Musiek, who really talked about the brain now, they weren't the only one, you know, even back in 1954, where you have Michael Beck and his initials.
[00:28:46] So books that were just amazing. And he talked about, um, central deafness. It was like a processing issue. So all of them, well, we've had conversations about the brain. Um, but we [00:29:00] persistent for the longest time in pretending that the ear was what there stood. In fact, we would say we're doing for speech perception.
[00:29:09] What's the speech perception of your right ear. What's the speech perception of your left ear? Like the ear perceived something, the ear perceives nothing. You know, the ear is the end organ that the sensory organ, the ear that, that received vibratory data from the environment like the eye is the pathway to the brain for optic wavelengths, but the eye doesn't interpret what the wavelengths mean.
[00:29:37] It's the brain that does. And the ear doesn't interpret the meaning of the vibrations. It's the brain that learns the meaning of about vibrations through exposure and practice and language. Um, so really the ear proceeds and nothing, the ear, nothing like the eye, nose and nothing. It's, it's the brain that knows, and that learns.
[00:30:00] So, um, I, I kept thinking about why, why. See then we get to the, uh, uh, when sometimes children were not wearing their hearing aids or parents, weren't putting hearing aids on their children. And as I've had conversations with parents, I realized, but they didn't understand that. Only purpose of technology is to gain auditory information through this damaged ear doorway, to the brain where knowledge can occur and learning and understanding can occur.
[00:30:36] And without the technology, there is no auditory understanding and auditory learning and it, it came to me and I can't, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this way. But it became very clear to me that we need a very clear client patient narrative that I find that the real hearing that occurs is in the brain.
[00:31:00] That's the purpose of the ear is to get information to the brain, but all the ear and the ear is an amazing organ. It is a phenomenal organ, like it doesn't know anything, right. It receives a vibration. So I found that once parents and teachers understood that if that technology was not fit early, if it was not worn at least 12 hours a day, if there was an auditory enrichment going through the technology to the brain, that child wouldn't know stuff.
[00:31:31] It would be denied language and knowledge and learning. And especially if the family's desired outcome was listening and spoken language. So over time, I guess, years I, I kept refining what this narrative would. Sounds like how we would talk about the sense organs. The six sense organs is doorways of capturing different types of environmental data.
[00:31:56] It's the brain, it's the brain, it's the brain. It's only the brain that can understand and learn it and know the meaning of that information. And so we audiologists are brain people. Our job is to grow and develop that auditory brain. And the way that grows and develops meant happens, right. By getting information to the brain.
[00:32:20] And if you have a doorway problem, a hearing loss, the only way to get information to the brain is technology. Right. That's the only way. And so, and adults brains too. I have it on good authority. So we can talk about the brain to everyone. If you have someone who's was developed around auditory information, but they're losing their doorway.
[00:32:44] We need to keep that auditory brain engaged. Enriched stimulated active. And that happens through technology. So gradually what's happening is, is, and I'm sure I know I'm not the only one who's thought about this. I mean, we, we all have that, but I think what I'm happy about is I hear my narrative echoed.
[00:33:08] All over the place. I hear the narrative here. What the brain, brain listening, brain science brain technology. I hear it echoed in and hearing aid companies and different technology companies. I hear other audiologists saying pediatric audiologist, clinical audiologist, rehab, audiologists, more and more.
[00:33:29] Sharing the brain narrative. And I'm thinking, especially now that we audiologists have such a critical role firing up the brain and developing the brain and keeping the brain going for people that we have to make sure that everyone knows that we have a. Critical quality of life, even quantity of life, expansive role, um, in, in working with individuals of all ages with hearing loss.
[00:34:00] Yeah. And I think, yeah, I always associate it's all about the brain. You know, the doors or the door, the ears are the doorway to the brain. And what growing the brain as your motto, like, I've heard it so many times from you, because that's your international and national platform. And even as a student at the university of Akron, you were talking about the brain at that point in time too, but it's such a great.
[00:34:28] Like you said counseling tool for not just, you know, for parents and for kids, but as you said, adult says, well, um, I know, you know, my whole cochlear implant story. I mean, initially when I got my cochlear implant, it sounded like beeps and chirps. My brain was interpreting that technology as beeps and chirps, but by.
[00:34:52] Putting on the technology and having that doorway opened and keep listening and doing auditory rehab with Denise Wray and growing. I was actually growing my auditory brain again. And so from an itty bitty, which we want any child. You've got as much access as possible, early on and grow that brain early on.
[00:35:17] We can still look, grow my brain when we're a little bit older too. So that's, what's so exciting about the brain and how we can. Lifelong learn about different strategies and keep evolving and how we learn and we teach and continue to grow and empower the people that we work with as pediatric and clinical audiologists, no matter what setting you you're kind of in today.
[00:35:46] So, um, yeah, I. I don't know. Is there anything else that you want to share as we kind of wrap up today? I just want to say you have been, and I don't think I showed this at the [00:36:00] beginning, but just about lifelong learning and kind of evolving. I know you knew me from. I want to say I was probably maybe seven or eight.
[00:36:11] I started coming to the university and it was actually another colleague of yours and mine now. Um, Lynn wood, who was, pediatric audiology at that time and Akron, and she was about to move to the Chicago area and our family needed another place to go. And she said, you have to go see dr. Carol Flexer at the university of Akron.
[00:36:40] So that was how we got plugged in. To my family from that age. And like I said, you been, you were there through my high school years. And then I got to go to the university of Akron for my graduate work. And then you've always been. A mentor to me, um, a presentation standpoint from a writing standpoint point from just a learning standpoint throughout all of these years.
[00:37:09] And, um, I truly enjoy every wine occasion that we get to have together as well, but I just wanted to plug that in because you've been that lifelong mentor for me. And I really appreciate all of that. No. Well, thank you. And you know, and I've, I learned from you to you from, from every encounter we've had from working with you and your family, seeing how, how you have progressed and, and your journey through, um, through early young childhood and teenage, and then into being a student.
[00:37:48] I mean, I've learned from you every step. By the way. And I just value our friendships just been priceless. And I, I have such fun. We have such fun when we write chapters together or we write articles together and present together. I mean, it's just been such a pleasure for me to have this sustained relationship and friendship.
[00:38:10] I mean, we are girlfriends as well as colleagues. It's just been wonderful. So thank you, Carrie. Yes. And I just want to say thank you again for being a part of this, empowEAR audiology podcast. I think this was a wonderful conversation and I hope that others will be able to learn from all of this.
[00:38:31] And I hope all of our listeners will download and share this podcast. And. Um, to all of my listeners, thank you for joining us today and please visit our website to get more information that transcript, but today's website for today's podcast will be on the website. And please remember to share with all of your friends and fellow audiologists and people within the field.
[00:38:57] So thank you again for being on this podcast and everybody have a great day. Thank you, Carrie. Bye. Bye. Bye. This has been a production of the 3C Digital Media Network.