A Conversation with Tiffany Yu, author of The Anti-Ableist Manifesto

In this episode of the EmpowEAR Audiology Podcast, meet author Tiffany Yu as we discuss her newly published book, The Anti-Ableist Manifesto. Tiffany is an award-winning social impact entrepreneur, disability advocate, and content creator. She is the founder and CEO of Diversability, a social enterprise dedicated to elevating disability pride and building disability power.

Tiffany’s impressive career spans roles at Goldman Sachs, Bloomberg, and Revolt, and she is now an in-demand corporate speaker, helping bridge corporate diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts with actionable insights for disability inclusion. Her TED Talk, How to Help Employees with Disabilities Thrive, has garnered over one million views, and her work has been featured in prominent publications such as The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and USA Today.

In this conversation, Tiffany challenges the notion that disability is a bad word. We explore how The Anti-Ableist Manifesto provides a framework for transformative conversations, deconstructs the language of ableism, and empowers allies with actionable steps. Tiffany introduces the powerful “me, we, us” approach to driving meaningful change and confronting ableism head-on.

As you listen, take time to reflect on your own experiences and biases, share this episode to spark further dialogue, and commit to actionable steps for inclusivity. Be sure to order Tiffany’s book on Amazon to read, reflect, and take action.

To Learn More about Tiffany Yu:  

https://www.tiffanyyu.com/

https://www.instagram.com/imtiffanyyu

https://www.facebook.com/imtiffanyyu\

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tiffanyayu/

https://mydiversability.com/

You can listen to this episode wherever you stream podcasts and at https://empowearaudiology.buzzsprout.com

For more information about Dr. Carrie Spangler- check out her Linktree at https://linktr.ee/carrie.spangler.

For transcripts of this episode- visit the podcast website at: https://empowearaudiology.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

Announcer: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 73 of empowEAR Audiology with Doctor Carrie Spangler.

Carrie: [00:00:14] Welcome to the empowEAR Audiology podcast, a production of the 3C Digital Media Network. I am your host, Doctor Carrie Spangler, a passionate, deaf and hard of hearing audiologist. Each episode will bring an empowering message surrounding audiology and beyond. Thank you for spending time with me today, and let's get started with today's episode.

Carrie: [00:00:40] All right. Today I am really excited to introduce to all of you an award winning social impact entrepreneur, disability advocate, and content creator. Today I have Tiffany Yu with me and she is the founder and CEO of Diversability, Diversabilty  social enterprise to elevate disability pride and build disability power. Having started her career at Goldman Sachs, Bloomberg and Revolt, Yu is now an in-demand corporate speaker, creating an approachable bridge in corporate diversity, equity and inclusion spaces spaces. Tiffany is the co-founder of the Awesome Foundation Disability chapter, serves on the LA 28 Olympic and Paralympic Games Working Group, and was the co-chair of the World Economic Forum Sustainable Development Impact Summit. Her TEDx talk, How to Help Employees with Disabilities Thrive has over 1 million views. Her work and story have been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Business Insider, Forbes, USA today, The Guardian, and more. And she lives in Los Angeles. And we are going to talk a lot today about her new release of her book, The Anti-Ableist Manifesto. So, Tiffany, welcome to the EmpowEAR Audiology podcast.

Tiffany: [00:02:12] Thank you so much for having me.

Carrie: [00:02:13] I'm excited to have this conversation today. I bought your book and I reached out to you on LinkedIn, and I wanted to be able to share your message with another audience who may not know you. And so just to get started today, I would love if you could just share a little bit about your background so that the audience knows a little bit more about you.

Tiffany: [00:02:38] Sure. So again, my name is Tiffany Yu and I am the author of this book that just came out called The Anti-Ableist Manifesto. And the purpose of the book is really around trying to close the gap around attitudes and perspectives around disability so that we can realize the full potential of whether it's the Americans with Disabilities Act or whatever the local legislation is in, in your part of the world to really combat and dismantle disability discrimination and ableism in all of its forms. I also run a large community called Diversability. The best way to think of us is we're kind of like a disability employee resource group that exists outside of a company. And my entrance into this space is through my own personal lived experience. At the age of nine, I was involved in a car accident where my dad, who was driving, unfortunately passed away and I acquired a handful of injuries and disabilities, including permanently paralyzing one of my arms and much later being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, which is a mental health disability.

Carrie: [00:03:46] Yeah. So all of those your background and and experiences really, I think shaped where you are today. And so did that drive you into writing the Anti-Ableist manifesto?

Tiffany: [00:04:03] Yeah. I feel like the whole process around the book kind of came accidentally. I, I remember and I wrote about this in the intro of the book when I was in high school. I remember having this dream that one day I wanted to write a book. And high school for me was 20 years ago. And, um, but, uh, I think that dream kind of sat on the proverbial shelf for a really long period of time until a couple of years ago, in 2021, I had, as I was starting to speak out more online and start to build a platform online, a literary agent actually caught wind of it and ended up reaching out asking if I had ever thought about writing a book. Interestingly enough, I started drafting up a book proposal for a different type of book that maybe one day will see the light of day. But a couple of months after I started working on that first book proposal, which was really centered on community stories around disability pride, I ended up getting another email from someone who worked in the publishing industry asking if I had thought about writing a book geared toward geared toward disability inclusion. Um, in a more in a, in a more formal way, or on a professional or in corporate spaces. And in order to fund a lot of our work at Diversability, because a lot of disability advocacy work pays $0, we're trying to change a lot of that. I know you were talking before we started recording about some of the advocacy that you're doing.

Tiffany: [00:05:37] Um, impactful, but sometimes does not, uh, does not impact your livelihood. Uh, but, um, so I had started doing some corporate speaking engagements as a way to help fund our work, our are my disability advocacy work, and I saw my experience working at places like Goldman Sachs and Bloomberg as an exception, as someone who is disabled, who has both apparent and non-apparent disabilities, and I no longer wanted to be the exception. So I saw myself kind of as this bridge between these corporate spaces, these advocacy spaces to figure out how we could move the needle forward on disability advocacy and disability inclusion, no matter where you were, if you were in a corporate world, if you were in nonprofits, if you were just grassroots and advocate doing your own thing, if you're an entrepreneur or a small business owner. And so I started drafting up a second proposal, now a new proposal about what ultimately ended up becoming the Anti Ableist Manifesto. And it's been super exciting to see the reception of the book so far, now that it's been out for a little bit over a month. About how excited people are and how digestible and approachable they feel like this information is, and how they feel energized and hopeful that creating a disability inclusive society is possible. And that's what I wanted, is that no matter who you were, you could pick up this book and there was something that you could learn and implement right away.

Tiffany: [00:07:13] And maybe it's not sitting on a hearing or changing laws right away, but maybe it's changing your everyday language, or calling in, or calling out microaggressions that you see. So I wanted to take people along that journey of just realizing that not not only is ableism all around and has been upheld by other systems of oppression for a really long time, is that how can we? You know, it's one thing to show up to a hearing or have a policy in place, but if you really do not fundamentally believe that disabled people are whole, valuable, worthy human beings simply by existing. And that were your peers and your colleagues, your coworkers, your teachers, your, uh, I don't know, podcast hosts, your hiring managers. We're literally everywhere. But if you do not believe that we deserve to be in those spaces, or that we exist or belong in those spaces, it's a lot harder to show up in a meaningful, non-performative way to a hearing or implement a policy which then may not, that may not get executed because you don't believe the you don't believe it. So the hope is let's get the hearts and minds and perspectives and attitudes to catch up to the fact that here in the US, we do have a policy in place. It's just not implemented or it's not enforced. Um, and in a lot of ways, we talk about how the ADA is a floor, not the ceiling, but we're not even meeting the floor at this particular point in time.

Carrie: [00:08:43] Yeah. No, you bring up so many good points in my mind. Just keeps going and going. For our listeners, what how would you define ableism, maybe as a large, um, for our society at large, for our listeners at large?

Tiffany: [00:09:01] Yes. So ableism is a system of oppression that devalues someone based on the way their body and or mind works.

Carrie: [00:09:09] Um.

Tiffany: [00:09:10] So I'm going to repeat that again. It's when we devalue someone based on the way their body and or mind works. And we can see this in everyday ways by saying things like, oh, if you're deaf or hard of hearing, you wouldn't be a podcast. How could you be a podcast host? You know, it's kind of asking those those questions that have embedded assumptions in them. And as a result of some of these societal ableist assumptions that people place on us, like if you're disabled, how could anyone want to be in a relationship with you? Or, um, how could you even have a job, you know? And, uh, Where we actually, as disabled people, start to internalize some of those assumptions ourselves. So one of the ableist assumptions that I had, again, when you're devaluing someone is because I can only type with one hand. I assumed I couldn't write a book, right. I think that there's probably more to it than the fact that this dream sat on, sat as a dream for 20 years. I didn't take any meaningful action toward it. But I wonder if part of my own internalized ableism was devaluing my voice as an author, because I couldn't write a book in the same way as other people could. Uh, fun fact I actually wrote the entire first draft of the book using speech to text technology. I find it much easier to talk than it is for me to write large amounts of text. Um, and and that.

Carrie: [00:10:36] Now you have a book, right? Yeah.

Carrie: [00:10:40] And probably the speech to text. Right. Came from the life hackers of individuals with disabilities.

Tiffany: [00:10:50] Yes. And and and in in some ways, you know, I talk about the ways that we life hack. But it also makes me think about what if we didn't have to. Uh, and I do, and I'm curious if you see it too, but I'm starting to notice a cultural shift around disability where I'm seeing more disabled content creators. I'm seeing, uh, younger people be able to find their voice as disability advocates a lot quicker. I just did a podcast recording yesterday with someone who is 22 and has a really incredible, uh, creates content, um, has a podcast, like, really building out their voice. And I think about nine year old Tiffany, who I not only did I dedicate this book to her, but I think about the younger version of myself and all of the things I wish I had access to, or I wish I could have seen, or the communities that I that I could have been a part of that maybe would have helped accelerate me finding my voice a lot quicker. No regrets, of course, but I do think about that a lot. About how now we have access, thanks to technology, to a lot more tools to not be so disempowered and isolated and excluded as we were before. That's still existing in a lot of parts of the world and even here within the US. But I think with the introduction of social media and hashtags, I can go online and search the hashtag brachial plexus injury, which is the name of my disability, and be able to find a lot of people quicker than how it was 25 years ago.

Carrie: [00:12:24] And in your book, I believe you write something that said disability is not a bad word. And I love just that phrase because I think it's so empowering. And I have been saying more and more, I have a disability and this is what I need. But it takes a lot of courage and I think strength from an internal perspective, a personal perspective to to put myself out there sometimes. And I'm not sure if it's just me or like you were saying, like our world needs to kind of catch up with the ground floor of ADA. And, you know, making more, more things accessible. I don't know if you've ever felt that way.

Tiffany: [00:13:11] Yeah. You know, one thing I think about is I think about the weight that the word disability weighed on many of us and probably society with, with this negative value judgment. Mhm. But I have said the word disability so many times and I talk about this in the book. It's called semantic satiation where if you say a word a lot of times it actually loses its meaning, like whatever emotional weight you put on it. And I feel like for a long time, not only many of us within the disability community, we and a lot of us still, uh, both within the disability community and not in our community, carry this negative weight around this word disability. But I have noticed and and the other thing that comes to mind is I wonder if it comes with time, because I am almost three decades into living with a disability. I am 15 years into my career. You read my bio. I have a lot of. things on there that would make any parent proud.

Carrie: [00:14:18] Yes. Um, but.

Tiffany: [00:14:20] I wonder if I would still, I wonder if I would feel confident enough in myself and in my experience to be doing this, be delivering this message in a similar way 20 years ago. Um, but I feel like a huge part of it. Step number one for me was finding a disability community. And I have a new theory. This didn't make it into the book. That part of the way that the system that ableism has been upheld is through us being isolated, because us being isolated puts us in a disempowered state. It makes us think we don't have a voice and that our stories don't matter and that we can't make change. But when we start to meet other people who are out there doing the thing, who are out there making waves, then we realize, oh, how can I use my voice? Because when I came into so there's, you know, I've been disabled for 27 years. I call my Add. I call myself an advocate for 15 years. So for only about half of that time have I considered myself an advocate. And I do think that there's a difference between those of us who are living with our with our disabilities and those of us who are out there advocating. I do think there's a certain level of privilege that it takes to have the safety to be able to talk about these things.

Tiffany: [00:15:50] But I also think that the visibility of us talking about it helps other people find us quicker so that we can create community, create those coalitions, and build that solidarity so that we can make change together. So 15 years ago I went out looking to build a disability community. I did not go out thinking I was going to become an advocate. And once that community started to build, I started to find my own self-confidence and build my own self-esteem in a way that I actually started to realize that my story matters. And I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge there was a period of ten plus years where I really I thought disability was a bad word. I was sitting in my internalized ableism. I'm still working to unlearn a lot of those. Uh, it's an ongoing journey, and I feel grateful for not only the people. It takes a certain type of person to decide to opt in to read this book. Right. And I'm just so grateful that there are people who want to care and want to show up better, and want to join me on this learning and unlearning journey together.

Carrie: [00:17:01] That your point about finding your community and finding people like you, I think is so strong. And when I was younger, I lived with my disability my entire life, and I remember the first time that I met someone else who wore hearing aids, who was my age, around my age, and it shifted me in a whole different direction that I didn't know it would. And by connecting people together that way, who can share their story, I think empowers you in such a different way because you don't feel alone. And I think I felt so alone going through the public schools with, you know, a disability. And you talk about not apparent and non-apparent disability. I wanted to hide it. I never wanted anyone to see my hearing aids. I didn't talk about it. And then to be able to meet someone, I just felt like I could come out of my shell.

Carrie: [00:18:01] Yeah.

Tiffany: [00:18:01] And I think about I think about liberation. You know, we talk about liberation and social justice movements and for minoritized communities. But I also think about the liberation of my own voice, of my own power, you know, and you you sharing that story and meeting those other people, you see the possibility of what it can be like and the potential of what it's like to be in your fully liberated state, where you don't feel shame or a burden for advocating for the things that you need.

Carrie: [00:18:37] Yes.

Carrie: [00:18:38] So I think this is a good way to really get into your book, because in your book, you talk so much about how we can do some of these things, whether you have a disability or you're an ally or an advocate in your book. So how did you decide on the title? I love the title. So let's start there.

Tiffany: [00:19:04] Yeah. Actually, it goes back to your love of that phrase. Disability is not a bad word. And I thought about, you know, when something is called a manifesto, it's kind of like an instructional guide. It's saying here's here's the pathway forward. The title was actually inspired by a social media series that I have called the Anti-ableism series. And maybe by the time this goes live right now, it has almost 300 parts to it with a couple in the queue, so we'll probably be above 300. But part of why there are 300 parts is that there's no one way to show up to the to show up better for the disability community. Um, there's a reason why the book is 250 pages. Uh, there's and probably could have been even longer if I had had more time, but I wanted I thought about some of these statements. Disability is not a bad word. Disability is not a bad thing. Representation matters nothing about us without us, which I've now heard edited to nothing without us. Um, and, uh, not all disabilities are apparent. And I wanted to, you know, when I created this book, I didn't have a clear idea of what the chapters were going to look like just yet.

Tiffany: [00:20:23] But I knew that I wanted every chapter to inspire a manifesto. And a manifesto are directive statements, right? So, uh, the chapters of the title very loosely resemble, um, resemble statement, and some of them don't. Uh, so, for example, there's a chapter called What is ableism? And the way it shows up in, um, in the manifesto is anti ableism, and you can actually find the ultimate manifesto in the conclusion of the book. But but I will have to give credit to my literary agent who came up with that title. Um, but I'd like to think I planted the seeds around it. And, and you know what's interesting about the publishing process and I went through a traditional publisher is that the title can change. Uh, the subtitle can change. Um, they have. And this is part of why I went with traditional publishing as well. And part of the frustrations with traditional publishing as well is sometimes they, you know, will determine that a title may not sell as well and they'll change it. And I've been hearing that from some of my friends who are writing their books right now that they're currently with a working title. That may change over time, but it was kind of cool to see that even from the inception of the proposal of a book called The Anti-ableism Manifesto, it stuck.

Tiffany: [00:21:44] And something I love about it is that even in the way it shows up on the cover, which is this bright orange gradient, it is in big block, bold letters, and orange also makes you feel something. It reminds me of a sunrise. It could be Phoenix rising from the ashes. It could be fire or it could be friendly. Orange can also be friendly. You know, people will will attach whatever meaning they have with it. But the first draft of the cover was black. Um, and I like where I do appreciate where we ultimately ended up. Uh, but I do think about all these little things that end up going into determining how a book will will come to be. So all of that to say the title of the book came in community, if we'll if we'll do it like that. Um, but we but yeah, I it was very much inspired by a social media series that I have and so many conversations that I've had over the last couple of years around digging into disability and ableism and anti-ableism.

Carrie: [00:22:58] And in your book, you.

Tiffany: [00:23:01] Oh, can I say one other thing?

Carrie: [00:23:02] Yeah. Go for it.

Tiffany: [00:23:04] Uh, so if you make it to the end of the book, uh, you will get introduced to something called the Anti Ableist Manifesto art, which actually. Yes. And you have it. Oh, you got your did you get your book from Yu and me books.

Carrie: [00:23:19] Yes I did.

Carrie: [00:23:21] Okay.

Tiffany: [00:23:22] Um so the that manifesto art. So, uh, so Carrie has it on a poster and I have it have it on a postcard. This is meant to be. No matter who you are, your entryway into this work. It's a piece of art. It hangs on your wall, it hangs up in the background, and it becomes a conversation starter because it's art, and art creates conversation. And so that to me, I almost went backwards in a way where I said, okay, if the title is the Anti Ableist Manifesto, let me think of a lot of different statements that I would want to appear on a manifesto that we're going to turn into a piece of art, because while I like the book cover, a piece of art stays with you. Um, a piece of art gets hung up, like, I mean, I have a book stand for my book, but you're not going to, you know, put my book on display hanging on your wall. Um, and.

Carrie: [00:24:15] So that's.

Carrie: [00:24:16] An orange wall over here that you cannot see. So orange is my favorite color.

Carrie: [00:24:21] Okay.

Tiffany: [00:24:21] So orange orange is your favorite color. But but yeah, it was this idea of if it's a manifesto, let's think of the statements. How are the statements going to appear on a piece of art? And whether or not you read the book, you now have access to this piece of art that can be your introduction into anti-ableism or into better supporting the disability community.

Carrie: [00:24:46] And I just have to say, I love it because it's easy to like just short phrases from the book that trigger what you read and you. It's almost like a summary of everything that you have wrapped up in the book, and that's probably what your intent was. But it was really good.

Tiffany: [00:25:08] Well, it makes me think, because, you know, I've been doing a lot of podcast interviews and I always get asked, you know, what's one thing someone can do today to show up better for the disability community? And that's hard to answer because depending on who you are, that answer is going to be going to be different. So now I can just hand them this manifesto art. And I say which statement on here resonates with you and let's start there.

Carrie: [00:25:34] I love that that is such a great way because like you said, everybody is entering this community from a different angle and from a different point in the journey. And whether they're an ally or someone living with a disability, you can be part of this anti ableist manifesto. In your book, you also have it sectioned out into three parts. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Tiffany: [00:26:09] Yes. So the book is structured into three parts through a framework called me we, Us and Me. We us is a framework that I it's a social impact framework that I learned about years ago about how we can create transformative change. So while I would love for everyone to be in the US, um, in the US part, which in the book is called anti-ableism and societal change that can feel overwhelming to people if you don't even know, if you don't even know that, if you still think that disability is a bad word. Um, so even if I look at chapter one, which is in the Anti-ableism and use section, uh, we renamed them for the sense for, for the, for clarity because originally it was called Anti-ableism and me Anti-ableism and we and Anti-ableism and us. And then as we were going through editing, most people who saw a section of the book called Anti-ableism and me thought it was going to be more a biographical memoir about me and not you. Uh, so then we were like, okay, if we're going to rename this first one, we should probably rename them all. But let's make sure in the intro that we know. We people understand that it's inspired by me. We, us. But, uh, chapter one is called disability is not a Bad Word. And chapter 34 is called Get civically engaged. Uh, getting civically engaged for some people can feel extremely overwhelming. And, um, maybe your privilege enables you to decide not to opt in. Uh, it takes a lot of work costs. It pays $0. Right. Um, and so, uh, so, yeah, that's how I decided to structure the book, because, again, I want to take you along this transformative journey that by the end, again, no matter who you are, you feel like this work can be accessible for you.

Carrie: [00:28:10] Yeah. And it is. I feel like you're the way you section it off is very digestible and applicable for the reader. So I want all of my listeners to go and, um, get this book and we'll definitely link it in the show notes, too. But I, I don't want to give too much away, but I want to like, highlight the the points in the book. So would it be a good way to highlight maybe like in part one for Anti-ableism and you like what would be a main takeaway point for that like section?

Tiffany: [00:28:50] Um, I guess I would come back to maybe disability is not a bad thing. Um, I mean, it's hard. It's hard because section one, section one, I think has 10 or 11 chapters, uh, and it talks about privilege and turning guilt into action. And, and I'm fine giving away everything. Right? I've actually been thinking about not only why I wrote this book, but what my goals are for the book. And really, why I wrote this book is I wanted to figure out a way that we could scale, impact. You know, I feel very grateful that I can go do an hour presentation or come on an hour long podcast. But how do in some ways, having a book out I'm or creating a piece of social media content, but having a book, I'm reaching people who will never meet me. They are having discussions about this book that I'm just observing. I actually haven't chimed in on them. Um, and uh, one of the discussions was about the way that I have defined ableism. Uh, and I thought and I thought that was interesting. And I was like, you know what? Let me have them discuss it. I don't need to come in. And I've tried to make it very accessible. How people can reach out to me if they have something they they need to say to me. Um, but I've also ended every single chapter with reflection questions. So, for example, in chapter one, which talks about different, uh, definitions of disability, thinking about the origins of the word and how we we may have attributed negative value judgment to it. At the end of the chapter it says, how do you define disability? Or go ask a couple of your friends how they define it and see where there might be some similarities and differences. So no matter who you are, again, you can come together and learn. But yeah, but that part one section, I mean essentially you can go into part one and read every and read out loud every chapter title. And that will be the takeaway from the book.

Carrie: [00:31:02] Right?

Tiffany: [00:31:03] It was fascinating because, for example, um, every chapter averages about 7 to 8 pages, but I think the chapter on Anti-ableism is like three pages. Uh, and, and in some ways, uh, and actually someone said this. So the, uh, the chapter titles are the takeaway from the chapter.

Carrie: [00:31:27] Yeah.

Tiffany: [00:31:28] And if you want to go deeper. So, for example, uh, one of the things I learned as I was writing this book was that the first use of the word ableism was 1981. Um, and depending on who you are, I was born in the 80s. Having a word first used in the 80s means that that word is not that old.

Carrie: [00:31:52] Right.

Tiffany: [00:31:53] And so if you if you have never heard the term ableism before, that's okay. Because while disability discrimination and devaluing disabled bodies and minds has existed forever, we haven't had language for it until the 80s, right? So we could say, hey, I'm being treated differently or differently or I'm never picked for for the team in the gym class. Did I know that that was ableism? No, because we didn't have language for it. Right. So part of it is just the beauty of of language. But yeah, the takeaways are the chapter titles. So disability is not a bad word. It's not a bad thing. Turn guilt into action. Learn about what ableism and anti-ableism are. Um, just think about the ways that representation really matters. I think that's in chapter one. And then, uh, and then talking about your privilege.

Carrie: [00:32:47] Yes. Yeah. All of those were kind of, you know, in that chapter one too. But, uh, yeah, I think one thing that really, you know, from the community like that second part, uh, that really resonated with me too, was, um, because I have a non apparent disability and I like that language because I know a lot of people have said like invisible or I used it in other ways, but I like that the way that you describe non-apparent disability, and a lot of the people that will be listening are kind of part of that community, whether they're supporting them professionally or as a parent or someone that might be deaf or hard of hearing. Do you have anything else to kind of share on how you treat people that way or support people that way?

Tiffany: [00:33:48] Yeah, I mean, I feel like the biggest microaggression that people who have non-apparent disabilities face is not being believed.

Carrie: [00:33:55] Mhm.

Tiffany: [00:33:55] Uh, and you know, we talk a lot about empathy in this work. And I kind of say like empathy with an asterix in the sense that you may never understand what it's like to live in my body. And that's okay. It's okay to validate that my experience is wildly different from my own. And maybe it's hard to relate, but can you just make space for the validity of that? And I also want to share that my shift to describing non-apparent disabilities as non-apparent was part of my own learning too, as I was doing research. You know, most of the time you'll see other people describe them as hidden disabilities or invisible disabilities. And I realized that while yes, they are those things too, there may be an underlying subtext that a hidden disability might mean someone's trying to hide it when they're not, uh, or having an invisible disability may mean that someone feels more or more invisible than they already do within the context of the disability movement and non-apparent disabilities just means that for now, they're not apparent, but they can become apparent at any point in time, and apparent or not apparent. It just means that you are not able to, uh, there's no look. There's no look for it. So so yeah, I think it was just really around like believing experiences, but then also understanding that support may look different for, for every person, uh, whether they have apparent or non-apparent disabilities as well. Uh, and, and offering that support and listening to how you can best support someone is is also another way. But I'm sure you have other ideas as well. I don't want to come in here and say I'm the expert because I'm someone who lives with both apparent and non-apparent disabilities. And I think that because I do have those comorbidities, meaning I have multiple disabilities, I don't know, I don't know what it's like to decide to opt in to not have an apparent disability.

Carrie: [00:36:16] Mhm.

Carrie: [00:36:18] Yeah. I think you touch on some really good points about uh the non-apparent disabilities because and not, you know, people not believing you. And I've heard from a lot of people sometimes who are like well you seem to hear me great like you seem to you speak well and you're following a conversation. And sometimes that I think plays into my internal ableism, where I feel like, well, maybe I'm not deaf enough because I am able to have a conversation with you and have a podcast. But if I'm in another situation, such as a larger group, I might fall apart, and then I'll be hesitant at times to ask for an accommodation or support because I feel like I'm putting a burden on someone else. And I think the you know what you said about me, we, us, and from a me perspective, I need to be okay with asking and and saying, hey, I need to have captioning or I need you to use a microphone in this situation. But in another situation I might not need that. So asking the person how you want to be identified and what do you need is a really powerful way to support someone.

Tiffany: [00:37:56] Yeah. And and one of the things I, I actually had a friend her name is Kayla or I follow her on Instagram and she, um, she has a limb difference on one of her arms. And she shared two videos recently around her trying to film some content. And someone walks by and they go, what happened to your hand or what happened to your arm? And she responds in the video saying, hey, I'm just trying to film my content. You know, that's not really an appropriate question to ask versus in a different video, a different scenario. She is showcasing that she's like working out and someone comes by and they ask what happened to her arm. And she explains that she was born with her disability and, and things like that. And so the context also matters as well. Like, we are not out here to educate you on your curiosity, on your intrusive curiosity at any one point in time. But we may choose dedicated times to engage, or we may choose not to engage and just to have other people respect those boundaries as well. I thought that was a good display where, like, I'm not always like I remember in 2019 I decided I was going to start rewearing a wrist splint on my injured arm. And I remember going back, going home from that appointment with the occupational therapist, and I was on the bus and someone next to me was like, oh, like what happened to your hand? And oh, it looks so different. Does it hurt? Blah, blah blah. And I was not in that particular point in time. I did not want to answer those questions. Right. And so, um, I feel like sometimes it's put on us, so much weight is put on us to have to educate or have to show up in a different way. And part of what I feel excited not only about this book, but having more disability narratives out there, is that it's not on all of us, on one person, all the time. To have to go out and educate. You can get your information from so many different areas, uh, areas as well.

Carrie: [00:40:02] Yeah. And I even think go ahead.

Tiffany: [00:40:04] I was going to say even what you were talking about, about not feeling disabled enough. Like, I think I experienced a lot of that as well. And that's why when I think about the definition I use of disability, it's a condition of your body and or mind that impacts your daily life in a certain way. Uh, so it may not impact your daily life in terms of you moderating a podcast, but it could impact how you engage in social large group interactions the same way that. I don't know, uh, and that's the beautiful thing about the disability community too, is we're so diverse. And I want to I want to make space for all of us to share our disability, our stories and our narratives and how different they are, and that there's no one size fits all for our experience.

Carrie: [00:41:03] Right. There's no right way to, I guess, be disabled. Right? Or so there's. Yeah, we're all different, and we all bring a different story to it. Thinking about you made me think about our allies. And that the weight doesn't always need to be on us to share. How can those who are non-disabled be an ally for us, too?

Tiffany: [00:41:32] I think it's chapter 33 of the book, which is called Advocate with Disabled People. And the original title of the chapter, or the way it shows up in the manifesto is advocate with us, not for us. Or maybe it doesn't show up in the manifesto. Um, but the reason why. Oh, or it says nothing. I decided I ended up with nothing about us without us. But maybe if I could do it again, it would have been advocate with us. Not for us. Or it could have been nothing without us. But the reason why I referenced chapter 33 is I came up with an acronym called PAPUSD, which now, thanks to ChatGPT, I probably would have asked ChatGPT to make it a more a better acronym than that. Probably that ends with an S, actually. Maybe after this I'll do that. Um, but essentially PAPUSD stands for Platform Amplify Partner. Use your privilege, share your story, and decenter yourself. Um, and hopefully we can use that as the carrot to dangle you to want to learn more about those. But essentially it's just saying, hey, you have nondisabled privilege. You may have access to spaces that we as disabled people don't. If you have an opportunity to bring us into that space, or to help ensure that you can help advocate and remember that there is a community that wants to access this experience or wants to access this product. Um, but then also remember that yes, your story is.

Carrie: [00:43:08] Important.

Tiffany: [00:43:09] But it's not ours. It's not our story. So make sure that you understand that you're sharing parts of your story in relation or in connection with us. But they're they're both important and they're different.

Carrie: [00:43:25] Um, and I love how you have those, like you said, that manifesto or that kind of plan for those who want to be an ally and advocate with us, uh, in that, in that community, too. What I, I guess moving forward and I know we're kind of coming up on the end of our time. You talked a little bit at the beginning that I kind of stuck in my head. You talked about when you were employed at a couple of couple of different places that your. It was an exception for and for your support and your your services there. Can you share why or how that was an exception at your place of work?

Tiffany: [00:44:19] Uh, I yeah, I want to clarify that. I feel like it's an exception in our community because if we look at our employment numbers, uh, we are twice, uh, our unemployment numbers are twice that of our non-disabled peers. And as I think about how we can meaningfully create change in the disability community, I do feel like having pathways to entrepreneurship and being able to support our livelihoods and getting hired and finding gainful employment are things that should not be so difficult for our community. Yes. Yet we continue to encounter barriers. So, um, yeah, I wanted to clarify. I did not feel like I was an exception while I was there, but I felt like I felt like those experiences and the fact that I do have these work experiences feel like they are an exception and not the norm in the disability community, as many of us struggle to still find employment opportunities.

Carrie: [00:45:19] Yeah, I think in your book, your research said, what was it only like 21% of the individuals with disabilities had employment?

Carrie: [00:45:30] And I think it increased.

Tiffany: [00:45:31] I think it was 22.3%, which ended up being like a record high. But I'll, I'll, I'll double check that. But still, that's really low.

Carrie: [00:45:40] That is.

Carrie: [00:45:41] Really low.

Carrie: [00:45:43] Uh, and I did some.

Tiffany: [00:45:44] Research as to why why it reached a record high a couple, the employment rate reached a record high. And there were a couple of reasons for it was the first was a tightening of the labor market in and retail and hospitality, which is where a lot of disabled people are hired. The second was the introduction or having access to remote or hybrid work, which means that disabled people would not experience transportation barriers to get to work, or it could work at hours that they worked best. And then finally, the new numbers of millions of now disabled people who have long haul Covid, who already had jobs, were now included in those numbers. So, uh, all of this to say, I know there's a much broader conversation around return to office mandates. And as someone who now works for myself, but, uh, works flexible hours, uh, at work stations that work best for me, I, I actually I reserve my like social media content editing time to like as I'm winding down during the day and I'm in my bed with my phone because I edit most of my video content on my phone, and that's how I how I work best.

Tiffany: [00:46:57] And again, I think about this didn't make it into the book, but this is one of my new ideas when I was looking at the definition of inclusive design. It is creating multiple design variations for the same desired outcome. And the desired outcome in this case is social media content. Uh, multiple design variations means I can do it. Sitting here at my desk. I can do it from my bed. I can do it at some random hour. And desired outcome is you still get the content right. Um, and I translate that back to work and how we think about accommodations as well. Uh, in some ways, I actually feel like accommodations are a form of inclusive design. It's thinking the desired outcome is you do your job. Multiple design variations. We have different ways of doing it, and the final product is what matters. You get a book, you can get it in print, audio or e-book. You know multiple formats of how you engage. That's even an example too.

Carrie: [00:48:03] Yeah. Now, having all of those different, um, options really opens up the door for so many people. You talk about a little bit about being kind of a fly on the wall with some of your book studies. And so what do you what what is the future? What do you feel like you would like to see as an outcome of putting yourself out there, writing this book and and getting it into the hands of of people?

Tiffany: [00:48:32] Um, there's a reason why I dedicated this book to nine year old Tiffany. And so much of what I have dedicated my life and my work to is ensuring that the world is a little bit kinder and more compassionate and better for.

Carrie: [00:48:52] Her.

Tiffany: [00:48:53] Because I think about how hard things were for her, and I don't want other people and these future generations to experience that. And I really do believe that our greatest gift is by being ourselves. And we, um, these systems of oppression have made us mistakenly believe that these aspects of who we are are things that we should feel shame about or hide away, when really, I think they unlock a lot of different things to create this whole picture of who we are. So my hope is that this book contributes to the conversation around ableism, calling it what it is, taking meaningful action to dismantle it. And. Ideal. Ideal. The idealistic part of me sees it as a way. Would love to see us end ableism in my lifetime. Uh, but there's also a quote I'm really inspired by from Doctor Robert Bullard. And he says the fight for justice is a marathon relay. Uh, and I love that quote, because for this particular point in time that I have the baton, I am putting this work out to hand the baton off to the next generation, and hopefully things look a little bit different, but we won't ever stop fighting.

Carrie: [00:50:33] Mm.

Carrie: [00:50:34] That is a great like wrap up of like your book and what your why and your passion. And for nine year old Tiffany and how nine year old Tiffany has made a huge impact um moving forward. Is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you think I should have, that you want to share with our listeners today?

Carrie: [00:51:00] Ooh.

Tiffany: [00:51:01] You know, I've been really reflecting on rest and how important it is. And I think capitalism made us believe that we always needed to produce. We always needed to have something new. We always needed to be doing something. And rest is doing something. And I think I've had to learn that my sustainability relies on my ability to recharge and nourish myself, and trust that I'm in a community that will take this work on when I can't. Uh, so so that's something I've been just reflecting on. You know, it's been fascinating having a book out. And people ask, you know, what's next? And I'm like, the book literally came out a month ago. Uh, can I celebrate this moment? And, um, but yeah, I've been I've been so grateful with how excited people are that this book is out and that in a lot of ways, I also didn't mention I also dedicated this book to my late dad. Um, that he can. That he and nine year old Tiffany can both live on in these pages, even though this book is not a memoir. Uh, maybe that one's coming next. But, uh. But yeah, just remembering to find moments of rest and joy.

Carrie: [00:52:35] Life.

Tiffany: [00:52:36] Life is lifing a lot of times, and sometimes has hard edges. For those of us who are disabled trying to exist in ableism, it's consistent cognitive dissonance, um, and can get really exhausting. And in those times I lean back on community and rest. So I think I wanted to make sure I shared that, because I think if you hear about all the things I'm doing, you're like, when do you sleep? And I'm like, actually a lot, uh, because it's so important.

Carrie: [00:53:08] Well, I think you deserve rest right now. And you also deserve a huge kudos because I haven't read a book like From Cover to Cover in a really long time. And I was just taking notes. And I appreciate all of the reflection questions. And I can see how this book can be so valuable for so many different audiences. And I really hope that a lot of people will, um, purchase this book, start a club, um, really digest it and talk about it and own it. And also use your art as like guiding words to reflect on as well. Tiffany, if people want to get a hold of you or buy your book, how can they do that?

Tiffany: [00:53:59] Yeah. So the best place to go is Tiffanyyu.Com and while you're there, you'll see more information on the book. You can get it at your favorite retailer. Carrie got her book at this amazing independent bookstore called Yu and Me books. No relation to me, but it's based in New York. And actually they just told me, depending on when this goes live, that they still have a couple copies that can come with the signed book plate and the manifesto art print for free. So if you want a copy of that to hang up to continue the conversation. Definitely check that out. But you can get the book at your favorite retailer, and then you'll find social media links. If you want to follow me across any places there, and even a place to get in contact with me as well.

Carrie: [00:54:41] Perfect. Well, I want to hold my book up and I will, like take a screenshot of us because I cannot wait to, um, get this. And I don't even know how to do that, but, um, I'll do it, um, through the through the video too. I'll take a screenshot. And, Tiffany, I hope someday we will be able to meet in person because and I just want to say thank you for writing this book, for putting your story out there, because I know that takes a lot of courage to. But it also impacts a lot of people and and many different ways, no matter where they are and their journey. And thank you for for being a guest today. I really appreciate you.

Tiffany: [00:55:27] Thank you.

Announcer: [00:55:28] Thank you for listening. This has been a production of the 3C Digital Media Network.